Christian Photographers Community

This is a continuation of a discussion started in one of the photography threads.  

From Anthony:

QuoteIt's good to see you pinkie and your photos are great.  I noticed your signature - "If the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."  Just as a matter of interest, what do people believe Christ is speaking of here - freedom from what?  I would be interested in hearing what people think.

Anthony.

Jeanne replied

QuoteAnthony, I've always believed it meant free from bondage to a life of sin.

Then Pinkie:

QuoteAnthony...To answer your question I've chosen to give you some scripture.  I hope this answers your question adequately.

Scriptures on Freedom in Christ

2 Corinthians 3:17  Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Galatians 5:1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Galatians 5:13  You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature [5:13 Or the flesh; also in verses 16, 17, 19 and 24] ; rather, serve one another in love.

John 8:31  To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32  Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33  They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"
34  Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin

Romans 6:6  For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7  because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.    16  Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17  But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18  You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.    22  But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Romans 8:2  because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

Hope this helps!    Pinkie

Any other thoughts?

Jeanne is correct I believe, Christ is promising that if these Jews who believed in Him were to continue trusting and obeying His word, they would find victory over sin, and the freedom over sin that Christ promises is a freedom indeed!

The scripture has always caused me to wonder because the promise was given to people who were not even converted.  If you continue to read through this passage it tells us that these same people were ready to stone Him because He told them who He was.  

Another thing that causes me to wonder is that even though these people were ready to stone the Son of God, they all presumed that they were right with God - verse 39 states, "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our Father..."  They thought that they were the children of God, even though they wanted to murder the Christ.  It is amazing how deceived sinners can be isn't it?

I am sorry to ask the question, but these verses have always caused me to wonder.

Anthony.

9.a.m.

You see at just the right time when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
For if when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more shall we be saved through His life!

...but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.  Rom 5:10-11.


"The promise is to you and your children..."Acts 2:39

Thanks so much, Karma, for moving these comments to this area where they can be discussed.

Thanks Anthony for asking the question!  I think it's good to discuss God's Word together.  

Anthony - you say

QuoteThe scripture has always caused me to wonder because the promise was given to people who were not even converted.

But the promise was not made to these people.  Jesus implied a big "if" here.  The "if" was only satisfied if these people, Jews though they were, were Abraham's children, but our Lord said they were not, for if they had been they would have done Abraham's works, which they did not.
So the freedom implied here was not for these people, but it was - and is - for those who are made free in Christ - free from condemnation due to sin and, as Jeanne said, free from the bondage of sin.

Interesting thought Al.  Actually, the promise was given to those Jews who believed on Him.  The bible does not suggest that the promise was given only to the children of Abraham.  The children of Abraham do not need to continue in anything to be made free, they are already free.  The only condition to the promise was that these people were to continue in His word.  And the freedom that Christ is speaking of, is freedom from sin.  These things are clear.  

I realise that these ideas contradict certain teachings on election, but when the bible contradicts doctrine I believe that we should amend the doctrine and not amend the bible.

Anthony.

Anthony - you suggest that Abraham's progeny were "already free."  They are truly free from condemnation and bondage to sin only through salvation in Christ, including regeneration, repentance, and faith.  As Luke said in Acts, "For there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved."  There can be no freedom except in Christ.  To say that there can be such freedom apart from Him is to deny the value of Christ's Death on the Cross.
For these people to "continue in His Word" would have to mean that they would continue in true faith in Christ.
Actually, it's evident to me that there were really two groups of people here - both Jews, both "children of Abraham."  Some, according to John, were Jews who believed in Him.  Others, obviously, considering their answer, did not believe in Him.  To "believe in Him" at that time meant to believe that He was indeed Who He claimed to be - the Christ (Messiah).

QuoteTo "believe in Him" at that time meant to believe that He was indeed Who He claimed to be - the Christ (Messiah).

I don't think that this is correct Al.  The bible does not suggest that the faith that these people possessed was such a  faith  that would give them an understanding of who the Christ was.  It simply says that they believed in Him.  Don't forget that even the devils are said to have believed in Christ.  It is true, however, that Christ gave a promise to a group of people that if they continued in His word they would know freedom.  The group (i.e. those who the bible states believed in Christ) became indignant because they thought they were of the elect and they did not believe that they were in bondage to anyone or anything.  Christ, however, showed them that they were not amongst the elect by exposing their habitual sin, but nevertheless a promise of salvation was given to these people - this is what the bible is clearly saying.  A promise of salvation was given to a people who were still in their sin.  This is clear from the passage and it is what caused me to wonder.

With regards to the comments about me denying that salvation is only in the Name of Christ, you have obviously misunderstood me, as no Christian would suggest such a thing.  I was merely stating that the people who were given this promise were not the children of Abraham (well, actually if you read the passage very carefully, Christ informs them that they were all in Ishmael - so in a sense they were the children of Abraham - but they are informed that they were not of the elect.)

Anthony.

QuoteTo "believe in Him" at that time meant to believe that He was indeed Who He claimed to be - the Christ (Messiah).
I don't think that this is correct Al.  The bible does not suggest that the faith that these people possessed was such a  faith  that would give them an understanding of who the Christ was. 

You speak of the "faith that these people possessed."  But I was speaking of the faith that only some of them possessed.  Some of them had indeed become convinced that He was the Christ (Messiah), while others were not thus convinced.  
The central message our Lord preached in His sojurn here was that He was the Messiah.  See Matt. 11:3, 4, Jn 8:24, 28.  In the passage of which we are speaking there were obviously some who did thus believe, and there were many more who did not.
For believers today, there are two kinds of "faith."  There is the faith that He is Messiah, that He's been sent of God, that they must bow before Him as Lord and confess Him as Savior.  And then there is unfortunately another kind of faith that is rampant today.  It's a faith that sees Him only as the great Benefactor, the One Who can give them peace and joy, the One Who can make everything right for them.  The ones who have the first kind of faith repent and seek to submit to Him as Lord.  The second kind only seek to get what they think He has to give.
It has not been different in any age.  There were both kinds of Jews present there in John Chapter 8.

It's a nice idea Al, but none of it is found in the bible.  We must keep solely to what is found in scripture and not add to it.

Anthony.

Anthony - you say, "none of it is found in the Bible."  Could you please be a bit more specific.  What is it that you believe is not found in the Bible?

I must be reading the same Bible as Al, Jenny and Karma. As far as I am concerned they have all expounded the Truth in a faithful manner.

You have all answered Anthony's question in a Biblical and manner and I must put my Amen to all that you have said.

Reading between the lines I fear that Anthony has a real problem accepting the doctrine of election.

A Pastor was asked by one of his congregation about this many years ago. The poor woman was concerned that she may not be in the elect.

'How ill I know?' she asked.
'You will know as soon as you believe!' came the reply.

He explained to her that election was god's part of the plan, while believing was our part. He also encouraged her with a an illustratation:-

Imagine walking towards a tunnel. Across the entrance to the tunnel there is a sign saying - 'Whosoever will.'

Having walked through the tunnel, it is only then that you can look back and read the sign over the exit of the tunnel.

'Elect of God!'

If we be sons of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ishmael, David...........whoever. If we are 'Born Again.' If we believe that Jesus is the Christ, our Saviour, then we are free indeed.

I do not live 'by ideas,' I live by faith!

8.25 A.M.


Thank-God for you Iain.  I have been troubled overnight about this.

I felt the "Little foxes" were at work on C.P.

........................................IN THE MAJORITY OF WITNESSES.

"IF WE RECEIVE THE WITNESS OF MEN THE WITNESS OF GOD IS GREATER" (1 John 5:9)

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the Name ofthe Son of God ; that you may KNOW that ye have eternal life  and that you may believe on the Name of the Son of God."      (1 John 5:13)  

Let us cast down these arguments....In Jesus' Name....


Jenny.          

I am sorry that I have not answered these posts.  I have been busy on a church project and then I had difficulty logging in, so I had to choose another login name (sorry Pat).

In answer to your query Al, what is not found in scripture is the idea that Christ was talking to two different groups of people.  The bible does not mention this idea at all.

In answer to Ian's comments, you have made a mistake when you say that I have trouble with the doctrine of election.

In answer to Jenny, the comment that I made that caused Al so much trouble was when I wondered at the mercy of God in giving them a promise  while they were still in their sin.  I still stand in awe of God's mercy in grace in giving this particular group of people such wonderful promise.  I am afraid that I see no cause at all for you to speak of "Little Foxes" being at work, and am quite offended by your remark.

Anthony.

The question before us is the identity of those to whom the promise was given.  I think, though, that we need to expand this to include an explanation of the promise itself.
The promise was that "the truth shall make you free."  At least some of the Jews present did not like those words, because, they said, they were free already, since they were Abraham's descendants.  Jesus then went on to show that, actually, they were not free, as evidenced by the fact that they still committed sin and were therefore "slaves of sin."
We need to go back to verse 31.  There we're told who it was Jesus was addressing.  We read, "Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him."  This clearly implies another group who did not believe Him.  We must, therefore, reach the conclusion that there were present two categories of Jews - ones who believed Him and ones who did not.  We really have to conclude  that there were also two similar categories of those who were free and those who were not.  As nearly as I can discern, the passage is quite clear that there were present two categories, not merely one.

The word of God mentions none of this, as Christ spoke to one class of people - i.e. those who believed in Him, but still did not know the freedom of the gospel.  

Also you took offence by my comment:

QuoteThe scripture has always caused me to wonder because the promise was given to people who were not even converted.

...and you tried to imply that the promise did not come to people who were unconverted, but your suggestion is not born out by scripture; according to scripture Christ gave a promise to a group of people who were still in their sin - "...if ye continue in my word, ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." In other words, the people to whom he spoke were in bondage.  Later on he shows what bondage he is talking about -  "He who commits sin is a servant of sin and the servant abideth not in the house forever."

So you see you were quite wrong to take offence at my original comment.  Christ gave a promise to people who were still in their sin, and this thought causes me to stand in awe of a merciful God.

Now because I have made this perfectly reasonable comment I have had to suffer abuse from people on C.P.  One person accuses me of having trouble with a glorious doctrine of the bible and another person speaks of 'Little Foxes'.  These things ought not to be.

Anthony.

Anthony - I say,

Quote"Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him."  This clearly implies another group who did not believe Him.  We must, therefore, reach the conclusion that there were present two categories of Jews - ones who believed Him and ones who did not.

Please favor me with a reply to this: what can this mean if it does not mean there were two categories present?

I haven't taken part in this little discussion as yet.  But it's really had me digging and that's good!

I thought it interesting while I was searching various helps that I came across this one from John Gill on the verse I believe is being discussed:

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

John 8:31

Then said Jesus to those Jews that believed on him...
For he knew instantly who they were, and when they believed on him; and therefore he immediately turned himself to them, and thus addressed them;

if ye continue in my word;
meaning the Gospel, called his, because he was both the author, and preacher, and sum, and substance of it: and to continue in it, is having cordially received it, to abide by it, and hold it fast, and not to be moved from it, by the temptations of Satan; the cunning of those that lie in wait to deceive; nor by the revilings and persecutions, the frowns and flatteries of men: and when men continue thus steadfast in it, and faithful to it, it is an evidence that it has come with power, and has a place in their hearts, and that they are the true followers of Christ:

then are ye my disciples indeed;
there are two sorts of disciples of Christ; some are only nominal, and merely in profession such; and these sometimes draw back from him, discontinue in his word, and go out from among his people; which shows that they never were of them, nor are the true disciples of Jesus; for the genuine disciples of Christ continue in his Gospel, hold fast to him, the head, and remain with his people; which to do to the end, is an evidence, of their being disciples indeed.

and we could maybe check out Matthew Henry on this portion...

We have in these verses, I. A comfortable doctrine laid down concerning the spiritual liberty of Christ's disciples, intended for the encouragement of those Jews that believed. Christ, knowing that his doctrine began to work upon some of his hearers, and perceiving that virtue had gone out of him, turned his discourse from the proud Pharisees, and addressed himself to those weak believers. When he had denounced wrath against those that were hardened in unbelief, then he spoke comfort to those few feeble Jews that believed in him.

See here, 1. How graciously the Lord Jesus looks to those that tremble at his word, and are ready to receive it; he has something to say to those who have hearing ears, and will not pass by those who set themselves in his way, without speaking to them. 2. How carefully he cherishes the beginnings of grace, and meets those that are coming towards him. These Jews that believed were yet but weak; but Christ did not therefore cast them off, for he gathers the lambs in his arms. When faith is in its infancy, he has knees to prevent it, breasts for it to suck, that it may not die from the womb.

In what he said to them, we have two things, which he saith to all that should at any time believe:— (1.) The character of a true disciple of Christ: If you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed. When they believed on him, as the great prophet, they gave up themselves to be his disciples. Now, at their entrance into his school, he lays down this for a settled rule, that he would own none for his disciples but those that continued in his word.

[1.] It is implied that there are many who profess themselves Christ's disciples who are not his disciples indeed, but only in show and name.

[2.] It highly concerns those that are not strong in faith to see to it that they be sound in the faith, that, though not disciples of the highest form, they are nevertheless disciples indeed.

[3.] Those who seem willing to be Christ's disciples ought to be told that they had as good never come to him, unless they come with a resolution by his grace to abide by him. Let those who have thoughts of covenanting with Christ have no thoughts of reserving a power of revocation. Children are sent to school, and bound apprentices, only for a few years; but those only are Christ's who are willing to be bound to him for the term of life.

[4.] Those only that continue in Christ's word shall be accepted as his disciples indeed, that adhere to his word in every instance without partiality, and abide by it to the end without apostasy. It is menein — to dwell in Christ's word, as a man does at home, which is his centre, and rest, and refuge. Our converse with the word and conformity to it must be constant. If we continue disciples to the last, then, and not otherwise, we approve ourselves disciples indeed.

(2.) The privilege of a true disciple of Christ. Here are two precious promises made to those who thus approve themselves disciples indeed, v. 32. [1.] "You shall know the truth, shall know all that truth which it is needful and profitable for you to know, and shall be more confirmed in the belief of it, shall know the certainty of it.''

Note, First, Even those who are true believers, and disciples indeed, yet may be, and are, much in the dark concerning many things which they should know. God's children are but children, and understand and speak as children. Did we not need to be taught, we should not need to be disciples.

Secondly, It is a very great privilege to know the truth, to know the particular truths which we are to believe, in their mutual dependences and connections, and the grounds and reasons of our belief,—to know what is truth and what proves it to be so.

Thirdly, It is a gracious promise of Christ, to all who continue in his word, that they shall know the truth as far as is needful and profitable for them. Christ's scholars are sure to be well taught.

To read more of Matthew Henry, John 8:31

Thank you Pat, for those good things from the commentaries.  I cannot but think that they are "right on."

Yes, Al, I feel similarly.  I do realize that many might not agree and that's their prerogative I know.

I find that it's interesting to study a portion of scripture and see what others feel about it.

I really enjoy what the Puritan writers write.

I also think that to try and realize what a portion of scripture is meaning it's good to read a bit about the history of the area and time as well.  

Al, do you know of a good text that would be good to read on Church History?  Jack has many I'm sure but a lot of his texts are packed away.

9.20 .m.

Thank you Pat.  

No 3.."A resolution 'BY HIS GRACE'  to abide by Him"

No 4. "Our converse with the Word and conformity to it must be constant".

"You shall know all the Truth which it is needful and profitable for you to know and shall be more confirmed in the belief of it, shall know the certainty of it". MATTHEW HENRY. .......

I add my own Amen to John Gill and M. Henry's words, such Truth.  A Mighty Holy Spirit.   "He confirmeth the word of His servants"

I agree with Pastor Al....."Spot on"...ABSOLUTELY!

The only thing we still lack is that permanent freedom in Christ that we shall have when He returns - freedom to worship fully and with all our hearts and freedom from even the presence of sin!  Oh blessed day!

As to texts on church history - there isn't just one!  There are actually many, many such texts - mostly focussed on particular aspects of church history,  My all-time favorite focus is the English Reformation.  One bood I have on that is "Five English Reformers," by J. C. Ryle.
A very useful little book that I have is "A Treasury of Early Christianity," by Anne Fremantle.  One we used a great deal in seminary was "A New Eusebius," by J. Stevenson.  A good quick-reference book on church history in general is "The Church In History," by B. K. Kuiper.
There are many others.  I believe Ryken has writtten one, and it is quite clearly and nicely written.
Our professor used to assign about 5,000 pages per semester as bibliography!  He never told us, but  he didn't intend that we had to actually read all that, but only intended that we should become somewhat acquainted with it and that we should then pick out what was of particular interest to each of us.  Imagine, though - 5000 pages in 2-3 months!  That was scary!

Wow!  5,000 pages is certainly scary, Al.  I remember similar assignments when I was in Seminary and when Jack was as well.

Thanks so much for listing those books.  I think it's good to have good books in our libraries.

But don't you wish the books in our libraries we could just absorb the knowledge from, sort of by osmosis?  (Only the good and true stuff, of course!)  

The third chapter of John is very interesting. A chap called Nicodemus comes to Jesus in the cool of the evening to talk. He is one of the rulers and teachers of Israel and Jesus expects him to know a great deal more than he appears to. As a teacher he should be well aware of the prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah. To me he appears to be sounding Jesus out to see if his own ideas concerning him are true. As he should know God has said in Hosea he uses similes, or similarities, to point out to people not only how they should act, but also what will happen in the future.

Jesus then gives a rather interesting comment. In John 3:13 – 15 he says:
No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

Going back to the wanderings in the wilderness we see the people sinning through their grumbling. God sends serpents that bite the people and cause them to die. Moses appeals to God and God tells him to make a brazen serpent, one of brass, and place it on a pole. Anyone looking on the serpent after they have been bitten will be cured. If you don't look you will die. Fire represents judgment. Brass, one of the few metals that can take fire without melting also represents judgment. The brass serpent represented sin and Jesus is likening himself to that symbol of sin raised before all the people.

Like the serpent raised in the wilderness Jesus became the sin of all the people. When he was on the cross his first words echoed those of Psalm 22. "My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me?" But God couldn't look on sin and Jesus now represented all the sin of all men. In his giving up his spirit he atoned for everyone's sin down through the ages. So now there is only one of two actions a person can take. As with the Israelites in the wilderness we can look on the serpent and accept the forgiveness it offers, or we can look away and die in our sin. Jesus gave not only of Himself; He gave Himself so that anyone who accepts His love and sacrifice will have eternal life. Each of us has to make his own

Thanks, Bob.