Christian Photographers Community

I'd like to bring to your attention two portions of God's holy Word.  They are Romans 5:3-5 and 2 Cor. 12:7-10.  Let's begin with Romans.  It says, "And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance, and perseverance character, and character hope.  Now hope does not disappoint because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit Who was given us."
This tells us that "tribulation" is not necessarily a bad thing, not necessarily something to be avoided at all costs.  Of course such tribulation can be any of a number of things.  It can be the heartache of separation from a loved one.  It can even be the death of the same.  It can be an injury, a loss, or an illness.  I think we could all supply an entire list of tribulations.

The important thing to be noticed, though, is that no enemy is mentioned as the culprit in this tribulation.  Of course the enemy of our souls intends us only evil, and he would revel in the opportunity to place trials in our path.  But as Samuel Rutherford said, "Satan is only God's master fencer, to teach us to use our weapons."  The weapons we are taught to use when facing tribulation are faith and prayer.  Longer tribulation results in longer faith and prayer, more patience, and, finally, says the Apostle, in "perseverance."  That makes a beauiful Christian, a Christlike Christian - Christlike because Christ Himself had to endure the deepest tribulation of all in His separation from the Father on the Cross.

But prayer too needs to be understood.  It isn't simply repetetive requests to be delivered.  Instead, it includes confession of sin, thanksgiving for dealing with us as with children  who need chastening (Heb. 12:7), strengthening in order to stand through the trial, and, finally, forming of the character in us that God desires.  The result will be hope, hope that will not be disappointed.

Dear ones - an "enemy" has not sent our trials, our sicknesses, our injuries, etc. upon us.  Oh the enemy may have been the unwilling servant of God, but he is a frustrated servant.  He loses!
Let us not be drawn into the practice of "rebuking the enemy" each time trial comes to us.  We are never to rebuke him anyway.  Jude tells us as much.  He tells us that even Michael the archangel dared not rebuke him.  He would only call upon the Lord Himself to rebuke Satan.  If the chief angel (archangel=chief angel) shouldn't do it, neither should we.

The second passage is 2 Cor. 12.7-10.  This passage is concerned with Paul the Apostle.  The Lord was here preventing Paul from succumbing to a very common human failing - pride.  So Paul says there "was given him a thorn in the flesh." We aren't told what that "thorn" was, though it must have been severe, because it moved Paul to pray hard and long.  It could have been a disabling physical problem of some sort - the shortness of a limb, an overactive thyroid, or a bulging disc.  We don't know.  But we do know it was at least as bad as any of our common ailments.  And Paul prayed.  Much.

And God said no.  Much.  He explained to Paul.  He said that His own strength would be made perfect in Paul's weakness.  In other words, He said, "Paul, I will be glorified through your infirmity, so I'm going to allow it to remain.  I want My Character and power to shine through that weakness, so that it will even appear to be strength!"

If that is true of an Apostle, it can certainly be true of us.  Again, no "enemy" is mentioned except the infirmity itself.  Again also, the "enemy" may have unwittingly been used in this and allowed to do what he does best, just as he was with Job, but, in the end, God was to be glorified much, again, just as He was with Job.

Sometimes our prayer for healing will go unanswered.  Sometimes we will plead and plead, and apparently God will lend a deaf ear.  Faith, though, sees the ultimate result and rejoices.  Does God deal so with you?

Ultimately, we need to listen to our Savior before enduring His awful Cross.  He said, "Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from Me.  Nevertheless, not my will but Thine be done!"  It was indeed and "enemy" who brought that most awful of trials upon Him.  But it was also the sovereign God Himself.

Amen, Al!  And Amen!  I'm so happy that you posted this.  As I was driving home after supper tonight, I was musing on scriptures that I've read in the past few days and I thought of the portion in Jude again and of Michael and here you've mentioned it.

I also thought about Paul's thorn in the flesh and I read where Paul asked more than once for the Lord to remove it but the answer was "No".  Thanks for mentioning that too.  I was discussing this only today with a very godly woman and now you have!

I'm going to re-read this again, Al and study it further.  Having had a dear husband pass away so recently apparently unhealed on this earth from so many maladies in his poor weak body but yet so faithful to God's Word and serving the Lord his Master, well, I needed this tonight.  

Thanks so much.  I'll be back.

I was listening to Charles Stanley yesterday, and he was preaching on this very topic.   He was using Paul as an example of a very Godly person praying to remove a thorn from his side.  He went on to say that when we pray in times of trials, tribulations, etc., God has basically three answers --

Yes,
No,
My grace is sufficient

I would go further and say there is only one answer, and that is the last one.   Whether it is good or bad, God's grace is sufficient.  Whether it is from Satan or God, God's grace is sufficient.

As far as where trials and tribs come from.  I remember one time being so angry at something and blaming Satan for making my life miserable.  I will never forget what my mom taught me.  I can blame Satan, BUT if it is actually something that God is wanting me to go through, I am giving credit to Satan for something God is doing.  Ouch.  The converse is also true.  If tribulations make us stronger, why are we so quick to praise God when good things happen.  Yes, blessings are nice, and I like them a whole lot better than the bad stuff.  But when I am going through a period of "blessing" sometimes I grow complacent.

It is also interesting to note that Satan is not omnipresent.  He, unlike God, cannot be everywhere at one time.  That means that if he is visiting me, he can't be annoying Pat.  I suspect a lot of evil is carried out by his demons.  Also, he, unlike God, is not omniscient, so Satan DOES NOT know the future.  I do not mean to downplay his power; he is a force I will not reckon with, but would rather let Jesus do it for me.

Now, a personal story or two about this subject.  When I was in college, I suffered from depression.  Later, looking back, I feel fairly certain that I was suffering from demonic oppression (being a Christian, I could not be possessed, but those pesky little boogers were after me all the time).  Was God in that?  Ultimately, yes.  Every step of the way.  He used that time in my life to force me to grow so that I could minister in ways I never dreamed possible.

Second example.  On June 1, 1999, my father suffered a massive heartattack.  It took 20 minutes for the medical team to get his heart to beat again.  as a result, he was in a coma for several weeks, then upgraded to semi-comatose/chronic vegetative.  I had complete and total faith that Jesus could and would heal him.  I prayed often for this, believing that Jesus would perform a miracle and Daddy would get up and walk again, and be completely whole and normal.

On January 3, 2001, Daddy went home to be with Jesus, never regaining full consciousness, and very far away from what I felt was the miracle I was expecting.  It wasn't that I prayed the wrong prayer, or that I didn't have enough faith, or that I did something wrong.  When I first heard the news, my first prayer to God was, "But you said . . ."  In that still small voice, I heard, "Did you think I could?"  Of course I did.  "That is what I wanted."  Daddy wasn't healed on this Earth, but the "miracle" had to be wraught in his death.

At the funeral was a man that knew Daddy.  He was married to a woman who was my brother's good friend growing up.  A couple of weeks after the funeral, he called up my brother and said, "I heard you speak at your Daddy's funeral, and I need to talk to you."  My brother went and visited and found out the man had just found out he had advanced lung cancer.  Through my brother's ministry and the pulling of the Holy Spirit, this man AND his wife accepted Christ.  In a very short time after becoming a Christian, the man died a quick, peaceful death (contrary to what the doctor's had predicted.)  If my Daddy hadn't died, the man wouldn't have been at the funeral, called my brother, and may not have accepted Christ in time.  Was it worth it to lose my father?  YES.  I will see Daddy again, and because God was willing to trust my family with the trials and tribulations that we had, we get to see a couple of more people to.

We thank God for the trials we had during that time.  Why?  Because we realized that God doesn't put on us more than we can bear.  And if he is allowing me to be tested to what I think is my breaking point, he must really have something special for me.  I have learned that trials and tribulations are not punishment for something I have done wrong (though indeed sin can have that effect).  

God is good, all the time.  Even when things are bad.

Sorry this is so long.  It hit me at a gabby point!

What a great discussion.  Thank you, Al, for your post here.  And thanks to Pat and Karma, too.  All of your words and thoughts are a blessing to me.  I wish I could be eloquent in speech, I know what I believe but find it hard to convey my thoughts to others.  Maybe that is why in my high school yearbook, by my name, it says "She says little but thinks much!"  
I will come here again and read further when I am not so tired.
Good night, all.
Love, Janice

Karma - THAT was beautiful!!!!  Thank you for it, every word of it!

Thankyou Al and thank-you for the sharing Karmat.

I've been to meetings too where everyone was blaming satan and commanding him to go.....When Pastor David Woodfield, Assemblies of God, delivered me he used the words "whoever you are leave this woman alone, in Jesus'Name" .  Jesus said I was not to listen to the voice of strangers, I do not understand them. "I do not know your voice or recognise your call"...John 10:5......This helps.

Just as there are angels so there are demons, but to dwell on them just gives them entrance....They have no authority...
Praise God Jesus came along and He touched me......HE NEEDED TO WITH ME.  

Thanks too Al. re the overactive thyroid....don't I know about this one and how the Lord has used this to draw me closer to Himself as it was untreated for many years and certain other treatments used which caused other problems.  Only Jesus kept me in my right mind as the nervous system went to pieces.  He is my rock.
Wow...St. Paul may have had an overactive thyroid and no treatment for it!  This is a new perspective.

Pat your husband was one of those lovely godly men who are such a blessing to others in this world.  Thank God for him.

Al & Karma  Thanks for sharing.  Al if you don't mind I will be taking a print for safe keeping and future study.

Janice:  I to an like you, I truly wish I could express myself better.

Thankyou Al and Pat....my thoughts exactly only I do not have a way with words as you do....God bless.    Paulette

I am not as good as others here at expressing what I am trying to say. For myself prayers are so important in ALL things whether trial, tribulation, healing and all those LITTLE things that some think we  shouldn't be praying about. For example the prayers for our animals.
In Philippians 4:6 we are told "Be anxious for nothing, but in ALL things with prayer and supplication to let our requests be made known to God, and the peace of God which transcends ALL understanding will guard your heart and mind in Christ Jesus."

I take the word of God literally and try to pray about ALL things. Sometimes it's hard for others to understand why I pray the word of God. But God said that His word does not return to Him void but does what He sends it out to do. He watches over His word to perform it. For me that means that when I pray His word out loud it goes out into the atmosphere and God hears my use of His word and knows that I am depending on Him to perform His word, So He hears my prayer and does what his word says.

I don't think I will discuss my beliefs on healing here as you all already know what I have previously stated in other threads here. I believe that God heals us one way or the other, that supernatural healings do take place. I am living proof that God heals. I used to have Mitral Valve Prolapse, painful cramps in my hands so bad that all I could do was to sit and cry, great pain and stiffness in my knees that made it difficult to sleep at night, to kneel for prayer and to get up and down from a chair, but God healed me. Then are are other things that have not been healed YET. But I am confident that they will be either by God or the Doctors that He has given the knowledge and ability.

As I have stated in other threads or in replies to IMs, emails, etc., I agree with you in regards to praying for animals - or any thing or anyone else.  God has made us stewards over them and charged us with caring for them, and He will therefore expect us to pray for them and for our own wisdom to care for them.  Prayer is never restricted.
All I'm saying here is that God does indeed send tribulations - whether through the agency of Satan or any other.  He sends them for a good purpose.  We may - and should pray in such circumstances for healing, etc., and God will hear us - though He may or may not send immediate healing.  We may only be healed in eternity.  He may use doctors to bring us healing.  Or, if it brings Him the most glory, He may indeed heal instantly.  God is not bound - at all.
The other thing I'm saying here is that God absolutely does not always heal immediately in response to prayer.  As Karmat says, the best answer to all such situations is "My grace is sufficient for thee."

12.30a.m. U.K.                                          

Thank-you all for sharing.  It is good to encourage one other to continue to pray.

Jesus told the story of a widow and an unjust judge who would not give her justice against her adversary, until she wore him down with her constant petitioning.

This was the story Jesus used to tell us we should never give up on prayer...."will not God defend and protect His elect who cry to Him day and night" Luke 18:1-8.

4.30 p.m.

This has been a week of testing. Today another family crisis looms.....

Pastor should I thank God for these things?....

My eye has just fallen on this verse:

"Go leave me now you men of evil deeds, for the Lord has heard my weeping and my pleading.  He will answer all my prayers....All my enemies shall be suddenly dishonoured. God will turn them back in shame."Ps 6:8-10.

Should you thank God for trials?  Unequivocally yes!!!  Should you then meekly submit to those trials without praying for relief?  Just as unequivocally no!!!  God would have us pray for sweet relief.  But He would also have us trust Him for the right answer, even if that answer is no.  He loves us.  He will hear us.  He wants us to come to Him in all things and at all times.  Jesus is our Lord, and He knows all about our trials and joys.  Come to Him - He delights in your coming!

4.50a.m.

Thank-you Pastor.....This helps just now...

            "One more step along the road I go"......

                                                        Jenny.

Midnight.

"As my sufferings mounted I soon realised that there were two ways that I could respond to my situation: either to react with bitterness or seek to transform the suffering into a creative force."

                        Martin Luther King (1929-1968)

Dear Jenny - walk alongside God.  He will help you with the transformation you desire.  You will see His blessed hand in it!

Dear Pastor Al.
Thank-you for that Prophetic Word.  I am copying it into my diary.

I do believe and have asked to "see His hand" at this time...

                         ALL THINGS

                   work together for good....


May the Lord give you His choicest blessings Pastor
and "multiply" Your work in the field.

1.30 p.m.

Some of you are praying for my daughter Helen on  another thread re the Scan on Thursday.

She has other health problems and doesn't sleep...FULL STOP!

I sent a page copy of your prayers for her and she has phoned me this morning to say "thank-you" to those who have prayed as she had a little sleep last night...She sounded surprised.
Praise God!

Please if any of you have a few moments will you keep Helen in prayer....."little by little" and "He is able that promised".

THANK-YOU HEAVENLY FATHER FOR YOUR GOODNESS.

Jenny.